Curse

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 14, 2007, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Erk, whether you're convinced of it or not, physicals being the primary damage dealers in Guild Wars is an established fact. All you're doing now is derailing the thread. If you want to understand why physicals are the most effective damage dealers, feel free to start a separate thread with your questions. Don't make any further posts on the subject in this one.

Shuuda · Oct 14, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

I don't mean to derail anything, but I think the title of the topic needs changing to Izzy doesn't understand balance, since it's clear that A-net don't, hence the reason why they hire someone to balance it for them, the problem with A-net is that they hire someone who isn't so good.

Blame the Monks · Oct 14, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Izzy isn't as bad as you all make him sound. I admit his wiki posts make him sound pretty dumb, but in person you can tell he is a lot more knowledgeable than the average GWP member, or the average guru poster.

He just isn't as knowledgeable as Ensign, and let's leave it at that. No need to rip him apart. Let's just help him see why Ensign is right.

Legendary Battousai · Oct 14, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Enisgn's post sures brought back some great memories of playing Guild Wars about 2 years ago. However we all know we can't go back in time. But thinking about it - heres an idea I came up with.

If Ensign and Izzy were to sit on the same vent, and go over a huge list of skills, where Ensign gives his ideas on what changes should occur and the way it will affect the game, so that Izzy will have a better grasp on skill balance to allow for variations in builds to achieve the same goals. Thus - a "good" skill balance may pop out of nowhere.

Sinful Doom · Oct 14, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

This game has all the tools needed to be a great PvP game. Let’s face the facts though, PvP is fading from Anet's memory. Why else would we have the broken skills and broken mechanics at present. This is probably a real indicator of what PvP will be like in GW2 as sad as it maybe.

Van Goghs Ear · Oct 14, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Great post. It pretty much sums up what everybody knew but didn't know they knew it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinful Doom

This game has all the tools needed to be a great PvP game. Let’s face the facts though, PvP is fading from Anet's memory. Why else would we have the broken skills and broken mechanics at present. This is probably a real indicator of what PvP will be like in GW2 as sad as it maybe.

Exactly...I say it time and time again, this game has great potential, and the only reason I still play it is because there is nothing else out there that plays quite like guild wars. Having said that, I don't think GW is good at all at the moment...it's just that there are no alternatives to it, and while it does have great potential, frankly I'm exhausted of waiting for that potential to be realized. As soon as something else comes along that is remotely better at doing what GW does (which wouldn't be hard), I will gladly abandon this sinking ship.

Please, act fast Anet, I'm tired of waiting 10 minutes for a match because nobody plays this game anymore.

Melody Cross · Oct 14, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

What about something that players have been asking for for over a year now?

Would NPC AI that kites out of flagstand AoE really have an effect against VoDways? I bring this up here because it seems in line with some of the things OP discusses: ie, most players seem to like the idea but it hasn't been implemented.

I don't just blame Izzy for this current issue. Its easy sit here on the outside to say its all one person's fault until you remember you're saddling every PvP failure and success on the shoulders of one man. If Ensign were in Izzy's shoes, I think we'd be in the same boat, just maybe paddling down a different stream.

A team of skill balancers would get more done, could bounce ideas off each other and implement them quicker and more frequently.

GGs

Shmanka · Oct 14, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Izzy isn't as bad as you all make him sound. I admit his wiki posts make him sound pretty dumb, but in person you can tell he is a lot more knowledgeable than the average GWP member, or the average guru poster.

He just isn't as knowledgeable as Ensign, and let's leave it at that. No need to rip him apart. Let's just help him see why Ensign is right.

For the record... Izzy asked Electronic Empire how to nerf Rit Spike...

In all seriousness (like you could even imagine me being serious),

Ensign once again got a bull's eye, I agree with making elementalists and mesmers potential damage dealers again, although I strongly suggest that no nerfing to warriors be done at all. Elementalists should be able to potentially deal a bit more constant damage and mesmers for one time damage, and for both professions to have some skills come out of the closet (ex chain lightning).

Alot of skills are to blame, and I am certain alot of us knew the lack of knowledge ANet has, from my understanding they look at numbers, and nothing else. I have decided I will not buy or suggest a purchase of GW2 since the soul reaping change. These skill updates makes things more problematic, it feels like I've had an open wound for months and ANet just recently decided to give me a kleenex to wipe the blood.

The problems are rooted deep into this game, Ensign you are on the right track... thank gawd if anyone else posted this it would be scrutinized. I hope you get contacted IGN soon by ANet staff.

Symbol · Oct 14, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Mind blasters are capable of very high pressure in theory. In practice they're ruined by caster shutdown and interrupts.

erk · Oct 14, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Erk, whether you're convinced of it or not, physicals being the primary damage dealers in Guild Wars is an established fact. All you're doing now is derailing the thread. If you want to understand why physicals are the most effective damage dealers, feel free to start a separate thread with your questions. Don't make any further posts on the subject in this one.

Just to remind you this this thread is called A.Net Doesn't Understand Game Balance, that means Physicals, Hexes, Conditions, Prots, Heals etc. If you want to start a thread called "A.net Doesn't Understand Physical Damage Game Balance" go ahead. My issue is with the assumption from some of the more experienced players, that Anet should only be concerned with with skill balance of teams that center around Physical Damage. I don't agree with that tunnel vision and I thought it was an appropriate thread to try and counterpoint that issue, that's all. If people can't grasp that the PvP skill balance has a bigger scope than what's being pushed, and then discuss it in a informative manner, I am happy to shut up and find other threads.

Lorekeeper · Oct 15, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Just to remind you this this thread is called A.Net Doesn't Understand Game Balance, that means Physicals, Hexes, Conditions, Prots, Heals etc. If you want to start a thread called "A.net Doesn't Understand Physical Damage Game Balance" go ahead. My issue is with the assumption from some of the more experienced players, that Anet should only be concerned with with skill balance of teams that center around Physical Damage. I don't agree with that tunnel vision and I thought it was an appropriate thread to try and counterpoint that issue, that's all. If people can't grasp that the PvP skill balance has a bigger scope than what's being pushed, and then discuss it in a informative manner, I am happy to shut up and find other threads.

well to be honest, if i ever come across as tunnelling my way through game balance its because i realistically do not expect Anet to give us anything more.

there have been countless efforts by alot of people, not only experienced players, to address a much more comprehensive aspect of game balance, rather than dealing with whatever is plaguing the current meta.

i mean even in this thread, you can see people saying that the game is being focused around the physical/anti-physical duel because of the way physical dmg is such a dominant form of dmg.

obviously dealing with this dominance will not only involve discussing physical dmg itself, but other forms of dmg too. Its just easy to focus on the physical side of the issue because it is so deeply ingrained in the game. You could fill threads full of dozens of pages with posts from hundreds of players concerning the physical side of the game without even having to mention much else.

its not because people dont realise there is a much deeper problem going on, its because not many of them have the breathe (or so be it typing stamina or attention span) to write lengthy essays that cover absolutely everything.

not to mention the sad fact that even if they DID write about every single aspect of game balance, they cant even be sure that Anet would READ IT, or that it would make ANY difference anyway.

give them more credit, the whole contention over game balance has been rehashed time and time again, the lack of any effort is more a sign of people giving up than a sign of them not understanding it fully.

PS using analogy, just look at what happens in real life elections. Is running a country really only a matter of the issues that party manifestoes mention or what presidential manifestoes mention? Just because during election time only the most controversial and vote winning subects enjoy centre stage it doesnt mean that those competing over power have no idea about the other issues (well that is debatable too :P), but you would expect, that given the time constraints and the number of issues involved in running a country, they just cannot hope to cover them all. I think that might help you understand whats going on in these threads that look like they just talk about warriors, paragons and dervishes.

Mysterial · Oct 15, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Mind blasters are capable of very high pressure in theory. In practice they're ruined by caster shutdown and interrupts.

Warriors are capable of very high pressure in theory and are ruined by physical shutdown too. That's not the problem. The problem is that Elementalists have no ways to make it more difficult for the enemy team to accomplish those things - in fact they have pretty much no offensive utility at all. They do not have viable knockdowns, they do not have viable interrupts, they do not have skill disablers, and they do not force the enemy to kite or otherwise prevent them from doing their jobs. In short, except for putting up pretty yellow numbers, Elementalists do absolutely nothing offensively. The only viable offensive utility Elementalists have in their entire skill list only benefits you when you have physicals (Water snares)

pah01 · Oct 15, 2007, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Erk you dont get it do you.

If you are not playing a spike build, then you have to play with physicals.

Pysical damage has been the only way to kill people outside of spiking because its the only thing that can actually do it at a high level. There are people posting in this thread who have been playing in top 20 guilds since the ealy parts of the game. The OP has been to both world championships and has won the winterfest tournament. His guild came second in the celestial tournament and the gwfc.

I think when he says that pysical damage dealers are the only way to kill something outside of pure spike builds his wealth of game experience should cause you just bloody accept it especially when other top 20 players come in and tell you so too.

STOP BEING STUBBORN.

Joe

Symbol · Oct 15, 2007, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Sure, offensive utility is the problem, but not the only problem, though as far as pressure goes there's a lot of value in doing damage at range and being able to switch targets instantly.

However there's absolutely no comparison between how harsh interrupts/skill disables/caster hate are vs physical hate. You hex or blind or snare a physical and he's running back at 100% as soon as it wears off or is removed by his team.

You strip an elementalist's attunement or disable/divert an important skill (not hard to do since even mind blast is a 1s cast and you have to spam it) or even something as easy as a pleak on RI and you've screwed over that character for a lot longer.

Lorekeeper · Oct 15, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Warriors are capable of very high pressure in theory and are ruined by physical shutdown too. That's not the problem. The problem is that Elementalists have no ways to make it more difficult for the enemy team to accomplish those things - in fact they have pretty much no offensive utility at all. They do not have viable knockdowns, they do not have viable interrupts, they do not have skill disablers, and they do not force the enemy to kite or otherwise prevent them from doing their jobs. In short, except for putting up pretty yellow numbers, damage Elementalists do absolutely nothing offensively. The only viable offensive utility Elementalists have in their entire skill list only benefits you when you have physicals (Water snares)

not only that, but elementalists only have energy management that prevents their energy going down (glyph+attune only works every 30 seconds and doesnt exactly fill your bar to full). Attunements give energy back but in effect it just reduces the cost of the skills they use.

warriors are able to maintain a steady stream of dmg not only because of their auto attack, but because they never run out of steam. A simple switch to a zealous weapon can recharge energy to full, but in most cases a warrior should have the energy rdy when its needed the most to use frenzy or bulls etc etc. Making warrior bars has always been about balancing the number of adrenal skills with energy skills, with the ability of a player to manage energy.

elementalists are vulnerable to energy denial, like a pleak on a lightning orb or an attunement, and they really have no reliable way of gaining back that energy. Glyph of lesser energy + attunes is really the only viable method of MAKING energy, but it only works for 2 skills every 30 seconds. If i was playing a mesmer and i wanted to really take an elementalist out of the game, id keep stripping attunes... and pleaking whatever is used after they use glyph. An elementalist without skillbased energy management is basically a gun with only one barrel of ammunition, once the bullets are used theres nothing else coming out of the gun apart from smoke.

but as far as things stand atm, if i wanted air ele no 4 to not do much but run around kiting and faking casts, i could do so on a mesmer.

if i wanted warrior no 2 to not do much but stand still, well, theres nothing in the game that can do that. I can blind it but thats removed with draw easily, i can snare it but i can get interrupted/diverted/shutdown by a mesmer, i can crip shot it but that gets drawn/removed. I can prot against it but prots get removed, diverted, or they switch targets.

what can you do to stop a mesmer from shutting down an ele?

kill it? - probably the most viable option but depends on ALOT of variables
shut it down? - how do you stop pleak from hitting attune? Fake casting? Well if you spend your time fake casting i dont see how you can achieve much pressure, or keep on doing your job blinding that warrior.

theres so much more to say....

if Energy Storage converted into energy regen, things might be a little different... i dunno, it would help a little though.

Vaga · Oct 15, 2007, 02:47 AM // 02:47

I'm not sure why anyone has a problem with the role elementalists provide at the moment, a utility role with good defense on a bsurge plus spike assist, water eles have snares which are very useful, and then fire eles to take advantage of teams who ball up and are good at vod. If they want people to use the earth line then you need to be able to do something useful like KD/snare/blind well.

Caster pressure seems pretty undesirable to me though since it's pretty much either going to be big aoe spells that are too strong at vod or just mindless button mashing to maintain damage.

Tbh the attractive thing about guild wars was the whole frontline that gets you kills, a backline that tries to stop kills, and a midline that can decide whether they need to help the frontline or backline at any given moment in time.

There just need to be proper drawbacks to caster pressure like they can't provide the offensive/defensive utility that they provide right now if they're going to be pressuring well and I can't see how Anet can do that or why they even want to do this in the first place.

Akaraxle · Oct 15, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

I was never a fanboy of Ensign, and it takes a long time for someone to gain my full respect; however, ever since I grew to be a better player with a better understanding of the game, it kept going up at each of his posts.

Your analysis & synthesis abilities produced a great text. As always, we pitifully hope that someone will take heed and fix stuff.

v o i d · Oct 15, 2007, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

I'm not sure why anyone has a problem with the role elementalists provide at the moment, a utility role with good defense on a bsurge plus spike assist, water eles have snares which are very useful, and then fire eles to take advantage of teams who ball up and are good at vod. If they want people to use the earth line then you need to be able to do something useful like KD/snare/blind well.

Caster pressure seems pretty undesirable to me though since it's pretty much either going to be big aoe spells that are too strong at vod or just mindless button mashing to maintain damage.

Tbh the attractive thing about guild wars was the whole frontline that gets you kills, a backline that tries to stop kills, and a midline that can decide whether they need to help the frontline or backline at any given moment in time.

There just need to be proper drawbacks to caster pressure like they can't provide the offensive/defensive utility that they provide right now if they're going to be pressuring well and I can't see how Anet can do that or why they even want to do this in the first place.

Totally agree.

That being said and though the op surely has good points, i don't really see such a fundamental problem with game balance.

What mainly made the game unfun for me (apart from a lack of competition) were Paragons with tons of hard to stop damage, tons of blocks and perma +20 armor for the enemy party. That, and the retarded Shield of Deflection spam.

Both of these issues were addressed at least to some degree with this update.

Okay, the SoR nerf was a mistake; i said half a dozen times on various boards the skill is fine. Sadly Izzy listened to the guys who argued it kills splitting, which is just not true. Before the patch, unless you were 100% sure your enemy will fight 8vs8, you could bring an Elementalist, a Ritualist or a Monk. Now you can only choose between Ritualist and Monk.

Servant of Kali · Oct 15, 2007, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

For the record... Izzy asked Electronic Empire how to nerf Rit Spike...

I don't know why everyone keeps repeating this in a negative context. I for one don't have a problem that Izzy asked someone for an advice. The problem is, that he doesn't seem to ask the right people (which is evident, just look at skill balances).

So is it pride or what? Why not just go and ask people who know better than give exhaustion to Rt's.

Personally, I don't even care who does the job, I don't care if Izzy gives a list to someone and says "do it for me". What I care for is that IT GETS DONE.

Zabe · Oct 15, 2007, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Totally agree with people here.

I wonder why Andrew is always hiding in these important threads. Then he just randomly pops up and says "this will be shown to izzy", but he never completes the sentence ", but izzy won't anyway give a shit about these".

There were few decent changes in that update. But mostly just random buffing/nerffing.